Ut Unum Sint" . . . contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints." - St. Jude 3
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Original: 8/22/2008 1:34 PM
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Friday, August 22, 2008

 
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Rescindentes verbum Dei per traditionem vestram

The Paleocrat, my good friend, brother in Christ, and godfather of my youngest daughter, has been doing a series of posts on a highly revered twentieth century Protestant apologist, Cornelius van Til. You can find those posts on his website. For my many years as a Protestant, I always greatly respected Cornelius van Til and found him to have discovered some of the greatest defences of Christianity. Indeed, I still argue for the Christian faith based on the general principles that he formulated.

But one aspect of van Til’s apologetic to which I was never exposed was his specific set of arguments for Protestantism, over and against the Catholic Church. I did not know anything about these at all until my aforementioned acquaintance began doing a series on his discussions of the Catholic faith. It was then that my opinion of him dropped considerably. Not only was van Til’s scholarship incredibly poor, but what became apparent to me so clearly was his absolute inability to articulate the teachings of the Catholic faith in any intelligible way. It was as if he heard what Catholics believed from B. B. Warfield, who learnt about Catholicism from C. H. Spurgeon, who learnt about the Roman Church from Ellen G. White, &c.

I was somewhat disappointed. I used to think of van Til as a confused, but honest Christian apologist. Now, I hardly can consider him anything other than yet another example of Protestantism’s endless supply of ignorant revolutionaries. And amidst all his blunders about Catholicism, comes this massive whopper of a statement that the Catholic Church “knows of no absolute authority such as Protestantism has in its doctrine of Scripture.”

What?

It is so incredibly laughable that a Protestant like van Til could be so ignorant as to utter such nonsense. Has he never heard of the infallibility of the Church? The immutability of Catholic dogma? The universal jurisdiction of the Pope? The necessity of accepting the Church’s dogmatic definitions under the pain of mortal sin and the loss of eternal salvation? Has he seriously never encountered the authoritative statements coming from the Magisterium of the Holy Roman Church?

But suppose that maybe he was only trying to make a rhetorical statement. Maybe he is making a deeper statement about the unchangeable nature of Scripture and its unbending rule in contradistinction to his understanding of Catholic dogma which appears to him to be capricious and based on the whims of men – subject to all forms of change depending on all manner of circumstances. Indeed, maybe that is his point. But if we were to press this issue, what would we find?

Well, for one, we would see that giving Scripture alone this much authority does nothing to establish any sort of objective system of morality or dogma. As if this even needed to be stated, one man’s heresy is another man’s dogma, and they could both be looking at the exact same texts when coming to their conclusions.

In the beginning of any apologetic discussion, the more hard core Reformed Protestants will always try strongly to impress their opponent regarding the absolute authority of the Scriptures and how expansive and demanding it is. But at the end of a long discussion when the problems with this model are pressed, he usually ends up making the ridiculous claim that “the Church” is actually comprised of so many thousands of Protestant sects, and that none of them actually have the full truth regarding the teachings of Holy Writ. Indeed, when one accepts that none of these thousands of sects that all supposedly comprise the Church agree on what the Scriptures principally teach, he must then admit that one need not even interpret the Scriptures correctly for salvation.

Some great authority indeed! “The Scriptures are the only infallible rule!” the revolutionary shouts.

But at the end of the day, nobody cares about this infallible rule, because it does not matter what anybody thinks the Scriptures teach. Take the doctrine of Holy Baptism, which the Bible says is a basic, rudimentary doctrine of the Christian faith (cf. Hebrews VI:ii). Do you believe that you should baptise babies? Think they should wait until they are adults? Should you use the Trinitarian formula? Use only the name of the Lord Jesus? Should baptism be done by immersion or by sprinkling? Does baptism regenerate? Should you confess your sins committed before baptism? Is baptism necessary for salvation? Who can baptise validly, a minister only or a layman as well? What is the function of baptism in the life and salvation of a soul?

The kicker to this is that the answer to any of these questions could be whatever you want them to be and a Protestant will say, “No big deal.” So the Scriptures are the only infallible rule, but it does not matter what you think they actually say or mean. The only thing that matters is if you believe that the Scriptures are the only authority. This is tantamount to Parliament saying that every man may do whatever he wants as long as he believes his actions have been warranted by British law.

*              *                *

               defendant i stands before the bench between the officers of the court.

judge: Sir, you have been accused of robbing a pub at gunpoint. The law condemns such actions with severe penalties.

defendant i: I did no such thing. And I care not what penalties the law may have. I’m innocent of all such accusations. Besides, the law is just a human construct anyway.

judge: The court will hear the testimonies of th– What have you said about the law?

defendant i: I only was making a statement in passing, your Worship. I am innocent of the charges that have been brought against me.

judge: Your questioning of the law shall not go unpunished. At this point, I no longer care about the paltry robbery charges. If you were guilty, you would have to pay a stiff fine, but a denial of the absolute authority of the law is a capital offence.

defendant i: But I’ve committed no crime!

judge: Your rejection of the law as the only absolute authority is your crime. Off with his head!

               defendant i is escorted out by the officers of the court. defendant ii approaches the bench.

judge: Sir, you freely admitted to a constable that you murdered a man in cold blood.

defendant ii: Yes, your Worship, I did. But I believe that the law allows me to do so with immunity.

judge: Ah, yes. Well, you’ve a point, sire; I previously thought, based on your actions, that you rejected the law altogether. It seems that you do in fact affirm the authority of the law after all. You are free to go, good man.

defendant ii: God save the Queen.

*              *                *

It has always been somewhat of a stumper for me. The Protestant will say that he is not a Catholic and believes the Catholic Church to be a false Church because she teaches error, but then will go on tolerating the most absurd errors in the world from every Protestant sect not his own (and sometimes from his own as well) on the grounds that doctrines do not matter anyway, provided that they believe the Bible is the sole authority. Some authority indeed. The Word of God is nullified by their traditions.

 Posted 8/22/2008 1:34 PM - 1346 Views - 24 eProps - 127 comments

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It is stunning to see just how many Protestants accept fellow Protestants without batting an eye over what appears to be not only a mere difference of opinion, but doctrines of grave importance. They do this by an unspoken consensus. Regardless of whether they are Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist, or elder rule, the unspoken rule is that of democracy, and a democracy unable to meaningfully implement its will and verdict.

Their lines of segregation are beyond arbitrary. Open Theists are out, but Supralapsarians are in. Full-preterists are out, but Dispensational Premillenialists are in. Real Presence is Out, but the Eucharist being a mere ordinance of oyster crackers and grape juice is in. Baptismal regeneration is out, but the ordinance of credo-baptism is in. Holy Orders are out, but ordination is in... except for the myriad of cases where men (and women) appoint themselves as ecclesiastical leaders. Cessationism is in, and so is Pentecostalism. A mish-mash of conflicting dogmas resulting from an inherent relativism and pluralism.

In short: The Protestant "church" (which is a foolish phrase if there ever was one) looks less like a heavenly and majestic bride than it does a cesspool.
Posted 8/22/2008 3:57 PM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

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@Paleocrat_etc - 

[It is stunning to see just how many Protestants accept fellow Protestants without batting an eye over what appears to be not only a mere difference of opinion, but doctrines of grave importance.]

They do that because in spite of their differences, they accept them as fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord.

[Their lines of segregation are beyond arbitrary. Open Theists are out, but Supralapsarians are in. Full-preterists are out, but Dispensational Premillenialists are in.]

This is not true in regards to salvation.
Posted 8/22/2008 4:11 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"This is not true in regards to salvation."

Ah yes, but then another Protestant will come along and say you are wrong. Actually, Paleocrat is only expressing the general opinion of most Protestant theologians. They will frequently say that full preterists are out and the dispensationalists are in. That is, believe it or not, the general consensus.

And I know that you think that the only thing a person has to do in order to get to Heaven is to have the proper understanding of the process by which one is saved, but that belief is not found in the Bible and is rejected by the overwhelming majority of Christians.
Posted 8/22/2008 4:18 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@musterion99 - 

[they accept them as fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord.]

This is most curious. On what grounds is someone not a brother or sister in the Lord? Which doctrines can one not deny? There must be a line in the sand. But even if you draw a line, one must ask why your understanding of the line is the understanding that represents or should represent the official position (albeit unspoken) amongst Protestants. What if someone disagrees with you? Do we go to the Bible? That doesn't help, each group I mentioned above claims to use their Bible as the reference point. Cesspool.

[This is not true in regards to salvation.]

You can be saved and believe that God doesn't know the future? You can be "saved" and believe that the end times came and went in AD 70, including the resurrection? Wow, I know a number of Protestants who would disagree with that one. Ah, let's make that the vast majority. But that is of no matter, nobody knows where to officially draw the line, and nobody has the authority to make it so for each and every one.
Posted 8/22/2008 4:24 PM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

And I know that you think that the only thing a person has to do in order to get to Heaven is to have the proper understanding of the process by which one is saved, but that belief is not found in the Bible and is rejected by the overwhelming majority of Christians.]

I'm not sure why you know that is what I think. I don't believe that just having an understanding is enough. If someone claimed to be a Christian but never produced any fruits of the Spirit and continually lived in sin without ever repenting, I would question whether that person is really a Christian.
Posted 8/22/2008 5:20 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@Paleocrat_etc - 

[On what grounds is someone not a brother or sister in the Lord?]

Someone that rejects the deity of Christ or that refuses to put their faith and trust that Jesus died for their sins, in addition to what I said in above comment to MF.

[You can be saved and believe that God doesn't know the future?]

I think it's possible. If that person sincerely believes that Jesus is God and has faith and trust that Jesus died for their sins, and produces fruits of the Spirit, then yes. I personally haven't spoken with many Open Theists but the one that I did, seemed genuine in his faith. But I'm not his judge and neither are you. Only God is, and we will find out who is truly saved on Judgement Day.

[You can be "saved" and believe that the end times came and went in AD 70, including the resurrection?]

Yes, same thing. I don't think that is essential to salvation.

[Wow, I know a number of Protestants who would disagree with that one. Ah, let's make that the vast majority.]

I haven't heard any Protestants, let alone the vast majority, say that if a Preterist believes in the deity of Christ and is trusting that jesus died for their sins, that they are not Christian.
Posted 8/22/2008 5:31 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"I'm not sure why you know that is what I think."

You need to read a previous thread of mine. You spelled it out quite clearly:

"God is able to save us in spite of our differences in interpretation of non-soteriology doctrines."

The implication is that differences in interpretation of soteriological doctrines remove one from the possibility of salvation. You should read the whole thread again here. Over and over again, you say that the most important (and possibly the only important) doctrine is soteriology, but the Bible never makes that claim, and a good many people would disagree with you, and it's just your word against theirs. All these appeals to the Bible haven't given anybody any idea of what's required for salvation.

"Yes, same thing. I don't think that is essential to salvation."

The point is that a lot of people do. Go tell a Reformed Protestant minister that you think Jesus already returned and there will be no second coming and see what his reaction is.

"If that person sincerely believes that Jesus is God and has faith and trust that Jesus died for their sins, and produces fruits of the Spirit, then yes."

Mormons fall into that category, as do the Children of God (David Berg's cult), as do many other cults. Again, we ask you what your basis is for saying that these things are the essential beliefs. That's what we'd like to know. Where does the Bible say that you can believe whatever you want about whatever you want provided you accept the two conditions listed above?
Posted 8/22/2008 5:52 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

If someone wants to read that thread, they can. I'm not going to re-hash what was already said. You believe what you believe, that the Pope can tell you what is right in spite of how ungodly he lives his life, and I believe what I believe.

Act 17:11 says - "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

They didn't have to go to Peter and ask Peter what was the correct doctrine. They searched themselves. Yes, I know the canon didn't exist yet, but the letters of the canon were being read in the churches. The point is that they searched for themselves.

1Jo 2:27 - "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and yeNEED NOT THAT ANY MAN TEACH YOU: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

I don't need the Pope to tell me whether I'm saved or not for believing in Jesus. I can read it for myself in the bible.

In Mar 9:38-40 we read where Jesus said - "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

These people were off on their own and not following Jesus and Jesus said to not forbad them. There are many people that can be saved that we don't think are. That's why only God is the judge.
Posted 8/22/2008 6:21 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"You believe what you believe, that the Pope can tell you what is right in spite of how ungodly he lives his life, and I believe what I believe."

Why, Jesus said made that very precept clear to his disciples (St. Matthew XXIII:iii ff.). Quite astute of you to pick up on that.

"Act 17:11 says"

They were searching the Old Testament to see if the what Jesus had done had been prophesied beforehand. They were actually receiving teaching directly from Peter and Paul, something that the Protestant conveniently ignores. The Bereans were not merely looking at a Bible by themselves in a vacuum, which is what you are espousing: a complete and utter disconnect from the Church that produced the Scriptures.

"I don't need the Pope to tell me whether I'm saved or not for believing in Jesus. I can read it for myself in the bible."

And the Bible says that you're saved? Can you check and see if my name is in there too?

"These people were off on their own and not following Jesus and Jesus said to not forbad them. There are many people that can be saved that we don't think are. That's why only God is the judge."

Agreed. But nobody here is doing any judging of anybody. But there will be lots of people that cast out devils in Jesus' name that will be in Hell forever.

It's fine if you want to talk about how only the Bible is important, but it's already been demonstrated time and again that a mere belief in the Bible does not guarantee that the person believing in it will necessarily come to the right conclusions about what it teaches. The kind of Christianity you have could not have even existed for the majority of Church history. If you had lived within the first fourteen centuries, the chances are that you would not even be able to read, and even if you could, you would not have had access to a Bible.

From where, then, would you have your knowledge of God? For you it would have been impossible. Because if you can't see it in the Bible, then it must not be true.
Posted 8/22/2008 6:34 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

[They were actually receiving teaching directly from Peter and Paul, something that the Protestant conveniently ignores.]

My point is that they didn't just accept it because Peter and Paul were saying it, but they searched the scriptures for THEMSELVES.

[And the Bible says that you're saved? Can you check and see if my name is in there too?]

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I don't need my name in there.

[Agreed. But nobody here is doing any judging of anybody.]

Really!? I've heard both you and Paleocrat say that unless I'm part of the Catholic Church, I'm not a Christian.

[It's already been demonstrated time and again that a mere belief in the Bible does not guarantee that the person believing in it will necessarily come to the right conclusions about what it teaches.]

I've already said that I agree on this.

[The kind of Christianity you have could not have even existed for the majority of Church history.]

Not all Christians followed Romanism. Remember when Jeremiah thought he was the only one following God and God said he had 5,000 others that Jeremiah didn't know about? Don't be so proud that there weren't other Christians throughout church history that were not following Romanism.

[From where, then, would you have your knowledge of God? For you it would have been impossible.]

O ye of little faith! The bible was being read in the churches, and discussed amongst one another, and oh yeah, there's a person in the Trinity called the Holy Spirit that was able to speak the word of God to them.
Posted 8/22/2008 7:24 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

Admittedly, I am still not sure as to whether or not it is still advantageous for me to write. It is always a balance act on the sting of prudence when dealing with matters like this... and with folks like you. But I don't believe I have run out of things to contribute, and I am not persuaded that you are a lost cause. Then again, maybe I keep it up because I see me in others. Not sure. Regardless...

You mention believing in the divinity of Christ. This is good. But do you see where there could be trouble? Not everyone who reads the Bible walks away with a belief that Jesus was God. In fact, one could argue that phrases like "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," which is rampant in the epistles, would indicate that Jesus wasn't God. Some could argue, having just read the Bible, that the Holy Ghost was either not a "person" or nor part of the Trinity. One would be hard pressed to say that a man stranded on an island with nothing but food, water, and the Bible would come away believing in what we call the Trinity. As we know, many may admit the deity of Jesus, but argue that he is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. These are real examples of real people who are really trying to understand and love the real Jesus.

This, of course, doesn't mean that the Trinity or Divinity of Jesus is not biblical. Far from it! It just goes to demonstrate that its not so plain and clear when everyone is just following their most diligent and sincere interpretation of the Bible.

But the bigger question here is why your belief on any particular matter (i.e., the deity of Jesus) is all that matters in regards to salvation. There are others, and I would contend most others, who would add a handful of other doctrines. You may disagree, but we are still back at square one of "on whose authority do I have to believe your personal interpretation when it is in conflict with my personal interpretation?"

So how would you answer the nay-sayer? Tell him to read his or her Bible again? Tell them that their personal interpretation is wrong? But they were good Bereans! They aren't in need of a teacher because they have the Holy Ghost! In the end, you have to tell them that you are a better Berean or that you have are more in touch with the teacher and, regardless of their having the teacher within them, they need you to instruct them.

Already being far too long, I'll end this comment by pointing out what I fear is the weakest link in your chain thus far. You mention open theists. You didn't argue that they were saved because what they believed was Biblical in reference to God. Instead, you argued that they were sincere in their faith. Sincerity. Well, people do tend to really believe what they believe, and most of the time it is because they really believe it. But where, then, is the line drawn? If personal interpretation and sincerity is all that matters, then where do you draw the line? On what authority can you or anyone draw that line? The Bible is already off limits because they don't need a teacher, especially not you or I. What is it? Where is it? It is like most mythical creatures of the night: a figment of the imagination.
Posted 8/23/2008 6:46 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

Off topic here. As I was posting, the big Google Ad feature you have here read:

Classical Hebrew!
Learn Hebrew Online with Israel's Best Teachers!
Sign up for a trial lesson.

I got the website for you. :)
Posted 8/23/2008 6:49 AM by Paleocrat_etc - reply

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@Paleocrat_etc - 

Shoot, that's nothing. Look at this whopper of a website I found last night in my footprints. Beware! This website will make you vomit. Make sure you have a Brian Maclaren book into which you can vomit as soon as you start reading the posts.
Posted 8/23/2008 9:06 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"My point is that they didn't just accept it because Peter and Paul were saying it, but they searched the scriptures for THEMSELVES."

But they weren't merely looking at the Bible. What you advocate is very different from what the Bereans were doing.

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

That passage is a wonderful one, but it's not the only passage that talks about salvation. And there are a great many questions that naturally arise from the text: What does it mean to believe? What does it mean to confess? Does belief mean a mere intellectual assent to the propositions of the Creed? Or does belief require more than that? Many passages of Scripture show that belief is way more than mere intellectual comprehension of propositions. And you'll have to address those (one day) as well.

"I don't need my name in there."

But you'll need a lot more than a quotation of that verse for proof. You have to answer all the above questions and that's just a start. Then you get into the issue of Sacraments, which the Bible says are necessary for salvation, the same Sacraments which you say are unnecessary. One verse is simply not going to cut it.

"Really!? I've heard both you and Paleocrat say that unless I'm part of the Catholic Church, I'm not a Christian."

First of all, you're wrong. I have never said that a Christian is somebody who is a part of the Catholic Church. There are many non-Catholic Christians. What we believe is that there is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church. But that isn't judging anybody. That's a statement of our belief. You also believe that those who reject Jesus cannot be saved - is that judging? No. That's a statement of your belief. For us, rejecting the Church Jesus started is rejecting Jesus, for our Lord said, "If the world hateth you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you."

"I've already said that I agree on this."

Then why do you keep coming back to the idea that one need only read the Bible to learn what must be done for salvation? If you already agree that a person might draw the wrong conclusions from the Bible alone, then why keep telling me that the solution is to return to the Bible alone?

"Not all Christians followed Romanism. Remember when Jeremiah thought he was the only one following God and God said he had 5,000 others that Jeremiah didn't know about? Don't be so proud that there weren't other Christians throughout church history that were not following Romanism."

What are you talking about? The Eastern Orthodox church? Or are you talking about the Marcionites, the Sabellians, and the Nestorians? The point is that if your version of Christianity is true, the Holy Ghost did fulfill His end of the bargain and did not guide the Church into truth, but into endless errors.

"O ye of little faith! The bible was being read in the churches, and discussed amongst one another, and oh yeah, there's a person in the Trinity called the Holy Spirit that was able to speak the word of God to them."

You don't advocate the Bible's being read in Churches exclusively (that is the Catholic way). You advocate people having their own Bibles and reading them apart from the teaching authority of the Church. And your version of the Holy Ghost taught everybody wrong things about the Bible until you were born and really started to hear the Holy Ghost. I mean, if you're right, everybody who lived before you was wrong. Which means that the Holy Ghost either said nothing to all Christians before you, or lied to all Christians before you. Take your pick.
Posted 8/23/2008 9:20 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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Well, Roman Catholics certainly recognized from the beginning that the bible is incongruous and cannot be consistently interpreted. Protestants see these contradictions and label them as paradoxical, sublime manifestations of the nature of God. The truth is that one really can make a good case for nearly anything with the bible. The problem for Catholics is that their interpretations go against the better judgment of the casual reader. But it's also their strength, because the careful reader will realize that at face value the bible makes no consistent sense. An infallible interpreter would be necessary, theoretically, to make sense of all the paradoxes. What we have in the end is no bible, with the church telling us the meaning of all the words and nothing taken at meaning.
Posted 8/23/2008 11:31 AM by distractedbyzombies Xanga True Member - reply

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"But I believe that the law allows me to do so with immunity."

I think you mean impunity.
Posted 8/23/2008 5:49 PM by robhoward - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

[But they weren't merely looking at the Bible. What you advocate is very different from what the Bereans were doing.]

haha - You're still missing my point, that they didn't just accept it because Peter and Paul were saying it, but they searched the scriptures for THEMSELVES."

[Then you get into the issue of Sacraments, which the Bible says are necessary for salvation, the same Sacraments which you say are unnecessary.]

As you well know, this issue has already been debated many times between Protestants and Catholics, so we don't need to go over it again. Bottom line, we disagree.

[There are many non-Catholic Christians. What we believe is that there is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church.]

Please explain the difference.

[If you already agree that a person might draw the wrong conclusions from the Bible alone, then why keep telling me that the solution is to return to the Bible alone?]

Someone could draw the wrong conclusions from the Catholic church and the solution would be to return to the Catholic church.

[The point is that if your version of Christianity is true, the Holy Ghost did fulfill His end of the bargain and did not guide the Church into truth, but into endless errors.]

Neither all of the popes, church fathers, or the Catholic churches are in total, absolute agreement.
Posted 8/23/2008 7:26 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@Paleocrat_etc - 

[Admittedly, I am still not sure as to whether or not it is still advantageous for me to write. It is always a balance act on the sting of prudence when dealing with matters like this... and with folks like you. But I don't believe I have run out of things to contribute, and I am not persuaded that you are a lost cause. Then again, maybe I keep it up because I see me in others. Not sure.]

That's ok. I understand.

[Do you see where there could be trouble? Not everyone who reads the Bible walks away with a belief that Jesus was God.]

I agree and I have faith and trust that God will sort it all out on Judgement Day.

[You may disagree, but we are still back at square one of "on whose authority do I have to believe your personal interpretation when it is in conflict with my personal interpretation?"]

Read Romans 14:4-5,9-12. Each person is responsible for their own life. I will have to answer to God for what I sincerely believe to be truth. If I'm wrong or you're wrong, then God will have to show us and convince us. I could no more force myself to believe that all the doctrines of Catholocism are true, then you you could force yourself to believe that Protestantism is true. Just because you were once a Protestant and changed to Catholocism, doesn't prove it's true. There's many Catholics that change to Protestantism. You changed because you were convicted that it was right. I've heard all the arguments and I am not convinced.

[So how would you answer the nay-sayer? Tell him to read his or her Bible again?]

I have faith in God that if they're SINCERELY seeking truth (God knows if they're sincere), then God will guide them. I'm not concerned whether God will guide them into Catholocism or Protestantism. How would you answer the nay-sayer if they don't accept Catholocism?

[You mention open theists. You didn't argue that they were saved because what they believed was Biblical in reference to God. Instead, you argued that they were sincere in their faith.]

Yes, if they are sincere in their faith that Jesus is God and died for their sins, and are producing fruits of the Spirit, then I'm not going to judge them and say that they are not really Christian.

[Sincerity. Well, people do tend to really believe what they believe, and most of the time it is because they really believe it. But where, then, is the line drawn?]

For me, just what I said above.

[On what authority can you or anyone draw that line?]

For me, the bible. I believe the bible teaches that if someone believes that Jesus is God and died for their sins, and their faith produces fruits of the Spirit, then I am not going to judge them and say they aren't a Christian. That's my conviction. If I'm wrong, I'll find out on Judgement Day.
Posted 8/23/2008 7:53 PM by musterion99 - reply

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I always wondered, how, having received the apostolic teaching from the Church, we can be sure we've understood it correctly? Why should we believe any of it? And THEN we are told it comes from within. Inner knowledge of the truth or something to that effect. It's no longer the church then or the bible, it is we who become gods and decide the truth.
Posted 8/24/2008 12:35 AM by distractedbyzombies Xanga True Member - reply

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@robhoward - 

No, I meant immunity:

6. Law. exemption from criminal prosecution or legal liability or punishment on certain conditions.

But good catch anyway.
Posted 8/24/2008 1:10 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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No, I meant immunity:
6. Law. exemption from criminal prosecution or legal liability or punishment on certain conditions.


yeah, but that's meaning #6. the better word would be impunity, for which the same dictionary gives the same definition as meaning #1.

a better defense overall might have been the following:

me: I think you mean impunity.
you: yes, I would have. but Defendant II does not possess the sort of precision in his vocabulary that you and I share.
me: ah. nicely channeled then.
Posted 8/25/2008 10:10 AM by robhoward - reply

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"[But they weren't merely looking at the Bible. What you advocate is very different from what the Bereans were doing.]

haha - You're still missing my point, that they didn't just accept it because Peter and Paul were saying it, but they searched the scriptures for THEMSELVES."

So, when St. Paul arrives, in person, at the church of the Bereans, and begins to teach them...do they say 'Stop, let us make sure that everything you're teaching us can be found in your previous letters to us!' Searching the OT to see how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies is not an example of the apostles' authority being contingent on Scripture.

"I believe the bible teaches that if someone believes that Jesus is God and died for their sins, and their faith produces fruits of the Spirit"

But if they don't believe Jesus is God, then they're out. How judgmental of you. ;)

As others have said, this is a really arbitrary standard that is not even explicitly laid out in Scripture.
Posted 8/25/2008 11:13 AM by Daveyh8 - reply

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@robhoward - 

I think your out might have been a better one, I agree. And I will stand by my original decision to use the word "immunity" lest somebody think that I changed by post under duress.
Posted 8/25/2008 3:53 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@distractedbyzombies - 

"Well, Roman Catholics certainly recognized from the beginning that the bible is incongruous and cannot be consistently interpreted."

I don't know if this was ever recognised at all. In fact, I think it can be shown that it was categorically denied by most of the early Catholic Fathers.

"Protestants see these contradictions and label them as paradoxical, sublime manifestations of the nature of God."

Not really. They, like Catholics, seek to reconcile them the way that scientists reconcile observations and facts that under some models lead to contradictory conclusions. The goal of the scientist is to find a model that accounts for all observed phenomena.

"The truth is that one really can make a good case for nearly anything with the bible."

Yes, this is true, because all documents require some level of interpretation and a collection of ancient history, poetry, and apocalyptic literature inevitably requires way more interpretation than your run-of-the-mill newspaper article, which is what some people think that the Bible ought to be.

"The problem for Catholics is that their interpretations go against the better judgment of the casual reader."

Not mine. Maybe for you, but not for a lot of people. For a person who doesn't believe that anything can be known, you sure seem to know a lot of things.

"But it's also their strength, because the careful reader will realize that at face value the bible makes no consistent sense."

It makes plenty of consistent sense. It doesn't to you because you expect it to be something that it is not.

"An infallible interpreter would be necessary, theoretically, to make sense of all the paradoxes. What we have in the end is no bible, with the church telling us the meaning of all the words and nothing taken at meaning."

An infallible interpreter is necessary not because nothing makes sense, but in order to the questions that arise from inherent ambiguities in the text. And ambiguities are not contradictions, but rather gaps. To fill in the gaps, a sufficiently good model is required, just like the model that the scientist uses to account for all the seemingly contrary observations he makes.

The Catholic actually cares about this model. The Protestant does not, or if he does, he doesn't care enough to make a good model a requirement for orthodoxy.

"I always wondered, how, having received the apostolic teaching from the Church, we can be sure we've understood it correctly?"

You cannot separate the Apostolick Teaching from the promises embedded therein. If you accept that Jesus did establish an eternal Church, then you cannot decide that this Church ceased to exist without rejecting the Apostles' teaching as well. The agnosticism that you are arguing for ultimately leads to nihilism.

"Why should we believe any of it? And THEN we are told it comes from within. Inner knowledge of the truth or something to that effect. It's no longer the church then or the bible, it is we who become gods and decide the truth."

The truth is independent of what you decide. The truth exists whether or not you look for it, and whether or not you find it. That is the nature of truth itself. And although what you believe the truth to be ultimately depends on your own actions and conclusions, the truth is there regardless.
Posted 8/25/2008 4:05 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"haha - You're still missing my point, that they didn't just accept it because Peter and Paul were saying it, but they searched the scriptures for THEMSELVES."

See Davey's comment above. The Bereans weren't looking through the letters that Peter and Paul would later write. They were checking to see if the Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus.

"As you well know, this issue has already been debated many times between Protestants and Catholics, so we don't need to go over it again. Bottom line, we disagree."

Is baptism and the Eucharist required for salvation? The Bible says yes. You say no. Yes, I guess you could say that we disagree.

MF: There are many non-Catholic Christians. What we believe is that there is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church.

LSP1: Please explain the difference.


A Christian is somebody who is baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity. That would include you and me. But salvation does not go to everybody who is baptised regardless. Those outside the Church cannot be saved.

"Someone could draw the wrong conclusions from the Catholic church and the solution would be to return to the Catholic church."

If the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth (I'm not sure if you accept this, but just for the sake of conversation) then you cannot go wrong to believe the official teachings of the Church. If you draw the wrong conclusions about the Church's teachings that go beyond what the Church has defined, there is no harm done. But it's best just to stick with what the Church has taught in clarifying the Scriptures and Tradition.

"Neither all of the popes, church fathers, or the Catholic churches are in total, absolute agreement."

Nor do they have to be for the Holy Ghost to have protected the Church from error. Because you refuse to understand the doctrine of infallibility, you will continue to make meaningless arguments like this one. Nobody ever said that all the Popes and Church fathers have to be in total agreement about all things for the Holy Ghost to have protected the Church from error. The official teachings of the Church have never contradicted each other, and no dogma has ever been reversed. For Protestants, you can change your dogmas as often as you change your socks and nobody will bat an eye.
Posted 8/25/2008 4:16 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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