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Original: 9/13/2008 12:07 AM
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Saturday, September 13, 2008

 
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How the Reformation Happened
By Hilaire Belloc
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preface

In many of my various discussions regarding the Roman Catholic Church, I end up arguing points with folks from all backgrounds, including everybody from the not-so-distant “Orthodox” to fundamentalist Baptist and everybody in between. Few of these people still hold to the original doctrines espoused by the so-called Reformers, but some do, and talking with them is always interesting. In one of my recent discussions, I came across a nice fellow who believed (along with the rest of the RPCNA) that the Pope is Antichrist, and more specifically, the man of sin represented in St. Paul’s second epistle to the Christians in Thessalonica. He posed a challenge for me, to wit: that I prove from Holy Writ alone that the Pope – or, the succession of Popes – is not the “man of sin” spoken of therein. This alone, he explained, was his reason for rejecting the Catholic Church. The following post is based on my response to his challenge.

Hic est antichristus qui negat Patrem et Filium

It must be said from the outset that I cannot prove to anybody that the Pope, or that all the collective bishops of Rome are not the singular “man of sin” mentioned in the Scriptures. The reason for this is the same reason that nobody can prove to me that he is (or they are), based on the Scriptures alone. One can offer his private opinion and I can offer mine, but at the end of the day, each man retains the prerogative of whom or what he will believe in terms of an interpretative scheme and why. Since I have no control over that, whether or not I have proven anything, always resides with the listener and with him alone. I might reverse the challenge and make my opponent “prove” that the Church that Jesus established was actually the many thousands of Protestant sects which would appear many hundreds of years later; at the end of the day, I would be the sole judge of whether or not he had proven this satisfactorily.

Secondly, proving that a singular Pope (the text does say “man” and not “men”) is the man of sin is not enough to disprove the claims of the Catholic Church since the Pope’s being Antichrist is certainly within the realm possibility. But more to the point, proving that the Pope is Antichrist is not enough, in itself, to demonstrate the claims of Protestantism. There are so many heretical sects (ones that even all mainstream Protestants would consider heretical) that are also in stark opposition to the Roman Catholic Church. The claim that the Pope is Antichrist could be accepted by Coptic Christians, Eastern Orthodox, Mohammedans, Mormons, Children of God, Swedenborgians, as well as many rural fringe charismatic sects.

Thirdly, there is a constant refrain that I hear regarding a great singular apostasy which is prophesied by St. Paul, and this apostasy is always accepted – prima facie – to be the corruption of the Roman Church. Yet history records hundreds of apostasies, all of which most Christians would also consider apostasies, to wit: Marcionism, Nestorianism, chiliasm, Donatism, Montanism, Eutychianism, &c. Demonstrating that an apostasy in fact took place does not prove de facto that “the apostasy” was that of the Roman Catholic Church. And the truth is that neither does it prove that Protestantism is the true religion. One must keep in mind that there are hundreds of current Restorationist Christian sects, all of which claim the exact same thing: that a great apostasy occurred within the Church, from which apostasy the Church would not recover for many centuries.

Saying that the Catholic Church began the apostasy is not enough to make the greater case – it must also be demonstrated that whatever sect you happen to hold is the true one. And there are thousands upon thousands of sects, all claiming to be the true restoration of the Church – the same Church which was destroyed or corrupted in the Roman Church. Let me name a few of them: Iglesia Ni Cristo, the Boston Church of Christ, the Church of God of Prophecy, the House of Yahweh, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists, the Campellites and the Millerites, and Luz del Mundo. All of these sects make the exact same claims as the Reformed Protestant, yet possess completely different doctrinal standards. In the grand scheme of things, what is one more sect amongst so many? For me even to give weight to one particular brand of Restorationist Christianity, I then would have to evaluate every single sect that was ever born of men. Why? Because if the Church fell once, she can fall again, and the brand of Christianity that one accepts now may well undergo its very own apostasy down the road, requiring yet another Reformation, where everything previously thought to be true is shown actually to be false – based on the Bible alone, of course, or which ever books were decided still belong therein.

Specifically, what makes the claim of the Lutherans valid, but not that of the Mohammedans, Mormons, or Millerites? If one can entertain that the entire Church fell and nobody saw it happen, then I can maintain that any other particular sect did fell as well and then we would have to investigate the claims of every single Joe Schmoe who came along with yet a new reading of the Scriptures. And why would we have to do this? Precisely because we would believe in a Church that is capable of teaching error. There would be no pillar or bulwark of the truth – just we, alone in the desert with our Bibles, yet without anybody to tell us how to read them. This is, ultimately, the scenario being presented to me. All Protestants will vehemently deny it, but there really is no way out of this. If a Reformation can come along and undo everything before it – or even ninety per cent – then another Reformation can come along and undo everything that the first one did.

And now, given all the aforementioned caveats, I will attempt to deal with the text at hand. The claim is that St. Paul said that this Man of Sin would sit in the temple of God (i.e. the church). Yet just because the Pope sits in the Church does not automatically make him the culprit here. All Protestants – indeed, all men of Christian persuasion – can be said to “sit in the temple of God” as well.

Next, it is said that “he would claim to be God on earth.” Yet many, many men have made this foolish claim. And not many of these men who have made this claim have been Catholics, let alone the Pope. There is no such teaching of the Catholic Church that the Pope is God on earth. The teaching is that he is the Vicar of Christ, which is hardly the same thing. He in a very real sense fills the same office as the Old Testament prophet who would speak to kings and say, “Thus saith the Lord.” The prophet was not claiming to be God on earth, but he did indeed act as God’s mouthpiece on earth. God uses mouthpieces all the time. Sometimes they are asses, and sometimes they are angels. But they are all God’s mouthpieces without taking away from His ultimate Deity.

Finally, it is claimed that this man of sin – the Pope, as the theory goes – “leads the apostasy, a falling away from the truth within the church.” But there were numerous accounts of these kinds of things, as I said above – why single out the Catholic Church, especially when Protestants by and large accept many of the dogmas that were taught by the Popes and the Catholic Church – even after this apostasy supposedly took place?

The Scriptures tell us specifically what the teaching of Antichrist would be, and no Pope has ever taught what the Scripture says that Antichrist would teach, to wit: that Jesus is not the Christ, denying the Father and the Son (cf. I John II:xxii). If a culprit is to be found for this teaching, there are many people who did this in the early days of the Church, and I have already named a few of them.

The main problem with this theory is that when I ask when it is that the Bishop of Rome became Antichrist, nobody ever has a specific answer, yet St. Paul says that all this rumpus would happen after a specific revolt followed by a singular revelation of a singular man. Very well then, what was this specific revolt? In what year did it occur? Who was the singular man, and whose identity was revealed of which the holy text speaks? I ask this because these things cannot be identified, I find nothing about the argument even remotely compelling.

Now the first great revolt that happened after St. Paul wrote his letter to the church in Thessalonica was the Jewish-Roman war, a great revolt, after which Nero took power (a. d. 66). He ruthlessly persecuted Christians, had the temple destroyed, and most certainly did see himself as a deity on earth. His megalomania was even observed by the heathen of his day.

And yet even after all of this, there is nothing in the text to indicate that an office, or a succession of popes is the singular “man of sin”. If one wishes to tell me which Pope it was, or which it will be, then by all means let it be known.

However, identifying which Pope it was will only present a whole new set of problems for the argument.

Should one decide that the Pope in A.D. 66 (St. Peter) was Antichrist, then that would not look too appealing, especially since he wrote some of the books of the Bible. If you pick his successor, St. Linus, that does not bode well either, because St. Paul speaks well of St. Linus in his epistle to the Romans.

Suppose it be St. Xystus – and he did reign around the time of the revolt of Bar-Kochba – but actually he did not do anything particularly man-of-sin-like. All we know that he did was to codify certain parts of the Mass. For instance, he did say that all the people have to recite the Sanctus together after the Preface. But that is hardly the behaviour for which we are looking in order to identify Antichrist. Then there is Pope St. Victor (A.D. 180), but he stood up for the deity of Christ Himself, and actually excommunicated a priest for denying it. By St. John’s own criterion, he fails to make the status of Antichrist.

One might go all the way to Pope St. Sylvester (as many often do, supposing that his name was actually Constantine), but Sylvester does not come after a large revolt. In fact, he and Constantine were around when the Edict of Milan was passed, when Christianity was legalised. After that, there is not a great deal to happen revolt-wise for a great season.

And I would be remiss if I did not mention that nearly all Protestants (and especially the Reformed type) accept the Œcumenical Councils at least up through the fifth century as being binding for doctrinal orthodoxy. All this brings us pretty late in the game for this great apostasy to have started.

And yet, in the mean while, hundreds of real, bona fide, historically-recorded apostasies had already occurred, but I am to ignore those. No, not just ignore them, but I am to side with the Catholic Church and accept her rulings at those junctures against those heretics. The Church slowly moves along, condemns Arius and Mani and Donatus – all well and good – but then at some point everything changes. Some huge cataclysmic event happens (but nobody notices) and suddenly the Pope is Antichrist, the Catholic Church is full of errors, and all of this happens to occur whilst evading recorded history and without sparking schism. Or even discussion. It just happened. And then all the events that led up to it and resulted from it were just washed down the Memory Hole.

I am forever curious as to where all the Bible-believing Christians were when this change took place. Did they all just hop right along down the path of perdition behind the great Whore of Babylon?

None of it adds up. Even so, I am willing to hear the various theories on this. I just cannot see how this can make any sense when analysed with any depth whatsoever.

But at the end of the day, the most obvious thing that sticks out is that the Scriptures say “man of sin” and not “men of sin”. The desire to turn the word “man” into the word “men” has a specific name I learnt in my Protestant high school systematic theology class: eisegesis.

 Posted 9/13/2008 12:07 AM - 2028 Views - 38 eProps - 203 comments

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I assume you asked him to prove scripturally that the text from which those verses are derived belongs in Scripture? I've wanted to chat it up with you but don't know the right time to do so.
Posted 9/13/2008 12:19 AM by mr_jargon - reply

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What is your opinion or the Catholic church's explanation of Revelation 17:6,9 in reference to Catholics killing Christians that refused to baptize their infants and Rome being the city that sits on 7 hills?
Posted 9/13/2008 2:07 AM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"...in reference to Catholics killing Christians that refused to baptize their infants"

What?

I mean, I knew that Jesuits caused earthquakes, that the Vatican invented Islam, and that the Spanish Inquisition was the real result for all the deaths during the Black Plague; but this one is really new to me. And just when I thought that I had heard them all.

Please, do tell us more.

And yes, Rome does sit on seven hills (the Vatican does not, but whatever) and Rome was indeed a very wicked city that burned, tortured, and slayed many Catholics. Drunk with blood of the martyrs indeed. I never heard of any Baptists or Assembly of God people that were murdered by Catholics for not baptising their children - especially since it was a universal practise since the time of the Apostles'. But if you're going to be recommending me to read "Trail of Blood" again, we'll have to rehash a lot of the same useless discussion as before.
Posted 9/13/2008 8:22 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

I'm not saying that I believe that interpretation of Revelation 17, but I knew that you were aware that some people believe that and I wanted to know your's or the Catholic's interpretation of it is. So, what is it?
Posted 9/13/2008 2:13 PM by musterion99 - reply

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I think Rev. 17 is talking about Rome during the persecution of the early Christians, and as a type, of the anti-christ system that is being put into place now.

With 'Israel' (blasphemous name) being the beast who hates and desolates the whore (America, whom all the nations have fornicated with and became wealthy off of).

I think the 'man of sin' will sit in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and claim to give peace to the world without Christ by a one world government where everyone gets along (Naturalism).
Posted 9/15/2008 11:28 AM by Daveyh8 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

I just told you the Catholic Church's interpretation - the Beast is the antichrist state that murders the Christians. In ancient times, it was the city of Rome. Nowadays, like Daveyh8 has pointed out, it is Israel and has been other empires in times past.

How in the world you can get from this:

And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.

to this:

Catholics killing Christians that refused to baptize their infants

in absolutely beyond belief.
Posted 9/15/2008 11:36 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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My belief is that the "man of sin" the "son of perdition" etc, was referring to Nero. Everything about the description of man of sin seems to refer to one particular man, and not an office...so it can't be the Roman pontiff.
Posted 9/15/2008 11:57 AM by kriegerwulff - reply

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@kriegerwulff - 

You're in pretty good company with that - I think St. John Chrysostom believed that it was Nero as well. Now that doesn't mean that it couldn't have other implications to a current situation elsewhere in the world as well, but I think it does preclude the idea of an office as well.
Posted 9/15/2008 12:13 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@mr_jargon - 

"I assume you asked him to prove scripturally that the text from which those verses are derived belongs in Scripture?"

Funny, I've never actually taken that route with him I don't think. Maybe I should - it would be interesting to see his reaction.

"I've wanted to chat it up with you but don't know the right time to do so."

Yeah, same here. You should come visit us some time - there are some really nice Separatist parishes in Atlanta.
Posted 9/15/2008 12:17 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

It's beyond belief that you can't read. I said that is not my interpretation but that I've heard others say that and I wanted to know your interpretation of Revelation 17. I think that whenever you see my name under a comment, that your heart starts beating really fast and you go into attack mode.
Posted 9/15/2008 1:31 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

"It's beyond belief that you can't read."

In what sense can't I read? If such an interpretation of the passage in question exists that claims it is in reference to Catholics killing Christians that refused to baptise infants, then I am lost as to how the connexion is made. Whether or not you hold to it is not really the issue. But since you have, here on this website, espoused the fantasy literature called "Trail of Blood", I wouldn't be surprised if you did actually believe it. So whilst you might not, it is not a stretch for me to have concluded that this too was your own opinion.

"I think that whenever you see my name under a comment, that your heart starts beating really fast and you go into attack mode."

The entry into attack mode is purely a Pavlovian response to reading your many comments (which, I cannot stress enough, are always welcome here) which require an inordinate amount of energy to answer. The reason for this is that most of the people who post here are at least moderately aware of the foundational differences between Protestantism and the Catholic faith. Anabaptists are pretty rare here; rarer so are those from that camp who have actually read "Trail of Blood" and consider it to be a piece of scholarly research. Talking to such people is difficult, not because they are ill-willed or less intelligent than others - in fact, many times it is quite the opposite - but because the there is so much unpacking to do with every statement that is presented to the Catholic as an argument.

As has been posted here before, Sir Arnold Lunn wrote: "Most Catholics avoid controversy not because they dislike intelligent discussion with a non-Catholic, but because the preliminary spade work which is necessary to clear the ground of debate from the litter of ignorant prejudice exhausts all but the stoutest heart." In order for you to be acquainted with the fundamental questions at hand here, you would have to do some level of reading. Because you have not done so yet, it makes dealing with your questions difficult. This is mainly because simple answers are impossible when questions assume so much from the outset.

Take this common Anabaptist question: "Why do Catholics pray to statues when the Bible - the only infallible source of truth - teaches that we are only to worship God?" This question is unanswerable. Why? Because the assumptions made therein (and there are a lot) are rejected in whole by Catholics. Furthermore - and this is a bit ironic - most of the assumptions therein are impossible without the existence of the Catholic Church, wrong though they may be. If we haven't progressed to this level of discussion, it's because it cannot be done in so short a time.

So whilst many Protestants post here, most of them have familiarised themselves with the fundamental questions that divide Catholicism and Protestantism. Most of the questions you ask here are indicative that you are still, as of yet, unfamiliar with these issues. So whilst I would gladly lead you along the path to understanding my perspective comment by comment, it would work much better if you would read a book or so explaining it, and then come back here with less complicated questions.

I hope this comment made sense and wasn't offensive.
Posted 9/15/2008 2:08 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

[In what sense can't I read? So whilst you might not, it is not a stretch for me to have concluded that this too was your own opinion.]

I told you that it was NOT my interpretation. Since you CAN'T read, I'll say it again. I've heard others say that and I wanted to know what your's or the Catholic's interpretation was. (btw - I lean more towards your interpretation than those that say it's the Catholic church that is talked about in Revelation 17.)

[I hope this comment made sense and wasn't offensive.]

It wasn't offensive. Thanks for trying to explain your view.
Posted 9/15/2008 5:13 PM by musterion99 - reply

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@musterion99 - 

And it should be said that I understand your first comment a lot better now. Thanks.
Posted 9/15/2008 5:28 PM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@MysteriumFidei - 

You're welcome. Yes, in my first comment I said "in reference" to, not that I interpreted it that way.
Posted 9/15/2008 7:35 PM by musterion99 - reply

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Hey, you forgot good 'ol Herbert W. The WWCG - now divvied up into numerous clans all claiming to be the true WWCG - was for a little season the hottest little restorationist-type club going.

It is imperative that anyone seriously interested in the Last Things should master the subject matter of the Fatima Message. It sheds abundant light on the Scriptures, light which only the foolish would spurn. Serious persons only need apply.

Posted 9/15/2008 8:44 PM by ContemplataTradere - reply

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http://www.cog-pkg.org/publications/50truths.aspx

If you really want a wacko check out this guy. I've been following him this year on and off. If you scroll through the page linked you can read pretty well every heresy ever concocted. He is the sovereign pope of a rapidly dwindling worldwide church. I think it will shortly be reduced to himself and his wife. In the end, he will have to be institutionalised - his condition is of such a nature, but until a diagnosis is made little can be done it seems.

btw, he goes into detail about the Man of Sin...Truths 23-25 or something like that.

Did I mention he also has a friend...a 7 foot tall white rabbit?

Posted 9/15/2008 9:24 PM by ContemplataTradere - reply

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This comment has nothing to do with the above.

Dave, (or anyone else who knows or has an opinion): As you know I'm a member of a reclusive and esoteric assemblage of rubrical fanatics known variously as English Catholics, Anglo Catholics, Anglican Catholics, Anglo Papalists and other unprintable monikers. I was wondering if you could satisfy my curiosity on a matter in the present day Novus Ordo practice.

I'm curious as to whether or not there is any regularly appointed service resembling Mattins and Evensong (choral or said) in which the laity participate ( I ask this because I have not seen any such service announced or advertised anywhere I have lived). The next question relates to choir dress pertaining to the same. I know you are familiar with the Anglican "cassock, surplice, black scarf" for Mattins and Evensong. What variations are there between modern day RC usage in the typical Novus Ordo parish and our English usage? I'm not thinking cathedral usage here, rather an everyday mid week parish service.

The other question relates to the Mass vestments. My own priest is "cassock, surplice, stole"; some priests wear cassock, alb, chasuble, stole....some even dig up fiddlebacks on ebay.  Let us suppose we have a typical Novus Ordo parish priest, celebrating a midweek noon time Mass during no special solemnity (Anglican reference would be a "feria in Trinity"). What would he be wearing?

If anyone has an experience to share it would be nice to hear it.

Posted 9/16/2008 12:04 PM by ContemplataTradere - reply

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Did I mention he also has a friend...a 7 foot tall white rabbit?

"Six feet three and a half inches. Now let's stick to the facts." -Elwood P. Dowd, Harvey

Posted 9/16/2008 2:39 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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Also, check out Ralph Woodrow's The Babylonian Connection.  Woodrow was the one who wrote Babylon Mystery Religion, a popularized version of Alexander Hislop's treatise The Two Babylons which argued that Rome's "idolatrous" practices were inherited from Babylonian religion, but when Woodrow went back and checked the 19th century resources that Hislop was using he found that oftentimes they didn't say quite what he'd represented them as saying.  Woodrow is still a Protestant but he absolutely demolishes Hislop's claims- which are still used by Jack T. Chick, Seventh-Day Adventists, and basically all the other leftovers from Preterism.  (Phil Jayhan of letsroll911.org, who believes the Jesuits are behind the New World Order, believes Woodrow was paid off- or, as he put it, "somebody bought him a pretty red wagon", but he has no evidence of this that I know of.)
Posted 9/16/2008 2:52 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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@ContemplataTradere - 

"Hey, you forgot good 'ol Herbert W. The WWCG - now divvied up into numerous clans all claiming to be the true WWCG - was for a little season the hottest little restorationist-type club going."

I always forget about this one. It used to be a favourite example of mine as a Protestant because it was so far-fetched. I'll have to make a mental note to keep groups like this on the list.

"If you really want a wacko check out this guy."

That was priceless, especially the over-inflated sense of importance this guy has about his own little sect and the mischievous little "man of sin" who led the "whole Church [sic]" into apostasy. Hilarious, if it weren't so sad. Indeed, I think he will have to be institutionalised. That seems about the only solution to his predicament of being the only member of the true religion on the entire planet.

As to your questions about the Novus Ordo vestments, it is impossible for anybody to tell you what to expect. Every parish is so drastically different that all regularity is gone from the Novus Ordo parishes. The more orthodox priests will vest very much in the same way as the English high-churchman, who mirrors the ancient traditions of the Church. The more liberal ones will vest in anything and everything. Sorry to be of so little help, but I'm afraid that's the best anybody will be able to do that doesn't live in your immediate area.

The one main difference between the Latin Rite and the Anglican Rite is that women never, ever wear cassocks in the Latin Rite. This is common in the Anglican Rite, even amongst the traditional Anglo-Catholics. As for attire during evensong, matins, lauds, &c., here is the general rule as I understand it: religious wear their religious habit, laymen may wear cassock and surplice if they are part of the schola (though this may or may not be standard), and women dress modestly and becoming of their sex (though usually non-religious women do not sing at the choral hours).

Have you considered joining a traditional Catholic monastery to fulfill your religious vocation? I'm sure that you would find a fine home in one of them and not have to worry about the typical Novus Ordo nonsense.
Posted 9/17/2008 8:42 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@ProtestantWitness - 

Interesting. I didn't know that any formal refutation of such beliefs existed. Of course, I am bombarded by the Babylonian theories constantly by both the atheist/agnostic and the fundamentalist alike. Did Woodrow publish his works in a particular volume that is readily available and in print?
Posted 9/17/2008 8:45 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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@ProtestantWitness - 

Never mind. I see now that The Babylonian Connection is Woodrow's refutation of Hislop's theories.
Posted 9/17/2008 8:47 AM by MysteriumFidei - reply

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons#Criticism

You can find some of Woodrow's points here.

My next Xanga post will be a compilation of his strongest points in *The Babylonian Connection?* so it can be used as a quick, handy reference.
Posted 9/17/2008 4:37 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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@ProtestantWitness - 

I meant "leftovers from HISTORICISM", not Preterism. Sorry. Must've typed that one before my daily coffee.
Posted 9/17/2008 4:41 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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You can find some of Woodrow's stuff on "pagan" stuff in Christianity (crosses, holidays etc.) at his website: http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/articles/index.html
Posted 9/17/2008 4:43 PM by ProtestantWitness - reply

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